Grand Challenges for Engineering - Aug 21, 2008
Whether buried under ocean sediments, pumped into depleted oil fields, or stored in some other manner, how to sequester carbon dioxide has no easy solution.
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I feel like there has to be a better way to store carbon than in the ocean or underground somewhere. Both of these methods seem like they are just shoving the problem under the rug, so to speak, and leaving it for later generations to deal with. We need to educate people on ways to minimize CO2 production and on the importance of the negative effects it has on our environment.
"...sequestering CO2 should be approached with an abundance of humility."
I think discussions such as sequestering CO2 should be approached with an abundance of humility. The natural world has proven to be remarkable (and mysterious) to man over the span of recorded history. When we don't conclusively understand cause-effect for current events, manipulating the system to alter the long-term capacity of this system is beyond arrogant.
"The problem is therefore not CO2, but coal-fired powerplants..."
PURE CO2 gas is actually a high-value commodity wich can be recycled in algae-plants in adjacent greenhouses. (the engineering for this has been worked out, see: algaelink.com). The problem is therefore not CO2, but coal-fired powerplants, because coal is never pure carbon but contaminated with metals, such as mercury wich ends up as methyl-mercury on our dinner plates, or SO2, NO2 flue gasses that no algae-strain can survive. I have advocated elsewhere on this site (next steps) to powertrack/electrify the highway-system, creating an artificial intelligent (weak A.I.) guide/slot-car network. This would increase profits for utilities due to MUCH higher capacity utilization. The amount of ethanol produced in the U.S. is fast approaching that of all coal used for electricity production (by energy content). Utilities could then make the switch to ethanol. In this way: 1 waste heat from a powerplant is used to climate control the adjacent greenhouse. 2 oxygen from the algaeplant is piped to the powerplant to clean fire the ethanol. 3 CO2 from the powerplant is piped to the algaeplant. 4 net energetic efficiencies of >80 % can be achieved. I hope that this is the sort of wealth-creation engineers can get excited about.
Carbon sequesteration is another big challenge facing the mankind along with the present energy crisis. Couple of things need to be done: 1. Extensive extension should be pursued educating the people in US and other developed countries to minimize and optimize the power usage. People still don't accept that global warming/climate change is the result of human action. Simple- Don't use if you don't require it. Just by educating people we can significantly reduce the carbon liberated. 2. Research needs to be done on catalytic conversion of CO2 to other forms such as water which will be beneficial and less harmful. Beware that the catalytic process should not generate another harmful form. 3. The CO2 can be harvested from industries and converted using processes such as anaerobic fermentation (which will need some form of electron acceptor) to ethanol or other beneficial compounds. This will require extensive work on finding the bug (microorganism) and means of supplying suitable electron acceptor such as H2.
"I am concerned about the security of the sequestered CO2."
My concerns about carbon sequestration are 3 fold. 1. The energy required for collecting, transporting and sequestering the CO2 promisses to be significant. I have seen a number that 30% of the energy produced would be required. At this level we would need 130% of the plants, and consume 130% of the fuel just to provide the curent net energy. This requires significantly greater capital and works to deplete the fuel resources quicker. 2. I am concerned about the security of the sequestered CO2. Formations which have had their gas or oil removed may not be as secure as they had been and thus not secure enough to retain the CO2. In addition, seismic activity could be accompanied by a belch of CO2 from underground resoviors and reverse any progress offered by the sequestration in land or sea. 3. I still lack a firm conviction that any rise in global tempreture is caused by the human activity or that there is a strong danger from the current path. Thanks. Andy Givens
Sequestering the CO2 from the 400 largest US coal power plants would generate something like 50M barrels a day of liquid CO2. Deep injection of those quantities is probably not sustainable for many years. Ocean injection might be more sustainable, but initially has much higher cost. Sequestration costs may push us out of coal anyway.
Carbon Sequestration is hardly an important issue, maybe only for those who still subscribe to the Anthropogenic Global Warming fearmongering for political reasons. During 2007 Anthropogenic Global Warming was pretty much discredited by over 400 prominent scientists who spoke out against it, many of whom were members of the UN IPCC committee which produced the 4th Annual Report in 2007. 19,000 other scientists across disparate fields have acknowledged that AGW, as touted by Al Gore and the IPCC, is misleading and discredited science at best, intentional fraud at worst. See: http://tinyurl.com/24ym5b U.S. Senate Report: Over 400 Prominent Scientists Disputed Man-Made Global Warming Claims in 2007 Senate Report Debunks "Consensus" Report Released on December 20, 2007 Yes, AGW is POLITICAL science, not hard science and not worthy of further attention. It's amazing that this is still being touted as relevant.
Why wasting time and money to look methods to sequester carbon dioxide if it is easier to plant more trees and use alternative energies such as solar?
Well, firstly I would like to thank the people working on this find a solution for the upcoming disaster. It is a very big issue and I wish them the very best of luck, but my question here is - This process is to eliminate the carbon dioxide from the atmosphere, and not to reduce the out of the carbon dioxide, To succeed we should work both on eliminating the carbon dioxide present in the atmosphere as well as reduce the incoming of carbon dioxide to the atmosphere.
I think before we start to think a bout a "silver bullet" (or bullets) we need to start thinking about how to do the most work (in the thermodynamic sense) possible for a given rate of CO2 production. We know that there is an upper limit on the rate of CO2 production at which a stable climate can be maintained and on the other hand the total amount of work done by us humans can be roughly equated to economic growth and standard of living. What this means, if not immediately obvious, is that we need to scrutinize the efficiency (or minimize the creation of entropy) in the production of all forms of work. Furthermore, recent studies, like the one by the McKinsey group, have shown that in many cases the cost of providing the increased efficiency is negative (i.e. a cost savings) at current fuel prices. All we need is some leadership at the federal level to make it happen -- the technology is already available.
Okay, when we get this concept attained, what are we going to do with all the people who have starved to death due the plant life not having enough CO2 to flourish?
Carbon can be sequestered WITHOUT locking up either H or O2 ! The best method of sequestering carbon is to convert it to activated charcoal using fast-growing high cellulose plants, hemp, Japanese knot weed and others. This carbon would then be plowed into the agricultural land where it acts to retain minerals which otherwise leach from the soil. This in turn can reduce or eliminate the use of fertilizers. One of the advantages is that the oxygen otherwise bound into CO2 is freed to the atmosphere. Another advantage is that this makes the land more productive, at low cost. Of course a massive undersea methane hydrate breakdown could release enough tons of methane to make our carbon sequestration efforts moot. The obvious way to reduce the need for sequestration is to quit using hydrocarbons as fuels. That still leaves us with the current excess. We have had the technology to capture solar energy in orbit for over thirty years, there is more energy per sq ft in space and collection doesn't entail land use questions. If pollution costs are taken into consideration, space based solar power is cheaper than any Earth-based solution. We must also cease using war as a political solution, as we cannot afford the waste in resource which modern ware entails. We need to advance the science of diplomacy. CO2 is deadly in high concentrations, and work done monitoring forest growth under artificially raised levels of CO2 find that after a certain level, plant growth is reduced rather than accelerated.
I saw no concern being raised about the concomittant sequestration of oxygen with the carbon. Will not the concentration of breathable oxygen be reduced even if we solve the problem of excess CO2 in the atmosphere?
The best way to sequester carbon is to leave oil in the ground. The next generation or two will need the oil if space exploration is to get off the ground. This generation will swiftly reconnect to the traditional american value of thriftiness.
The best storage method is to plant trees. They can increase the concentration of oxygen by photosynthesis. Trees are a power source and help the spirit.
CO2 is NOT a pollutant. In fact, it stimulates growth of plants. There is no evidence that I have seen that shows that CO2 is having a 'bad' effect on our planet. The amount of CO2 in greenhouse gases is negligible compared to e.g. water vapour. I think your site is very interesting and stimulating. But it is a shame that you have to go with such a false assumption, i.e. that sequestering CO2 is a major concern of modern times. Our energy/resources can be better put to e.g. space exploration. I find it very sad not to see space exploration in the list but do see carbon sequestration methods.
Ideas: send it beyond our orbit figure out how to bind it to something else to make it innocuous quit making so much of the stuff!
The name is "carbon sequestration", yet we are talking about sequestration of two oxygen atoms for every carbon atom put away... Can we effort the oxygen sequestration? Do we have enough oxygen? I thing that pressing for technologies replacing any fossil fuel use would lead to more sustainable energy policy for the entire globe. Wind, solar, tide, nuclear, hydrogen (H with no C, but powered by energy sources mentioned before, to get H out of H2O, would waste some energy, but provides for dependable and portable H fuel) are examples of what we can work on to lower the costs. Fusion is already on your list but it does not work yet.
My comments regarding man trying to control the normal earth cycles of warming and cooling can be summed up in a quote from "The Man from La Mancha" ""Fortune," said Don Quixote to his squire, as soon as he had seen them, "is arranging matters for us better than we could have hoped. Look there, friend Sancho Panza, where thirty or more monstrous giants rise up, all of whom I mean to engage in battle and slay, and with whose spoils we shall begin to make our fortunes. For this is righteous warfare, and it is God's good service to sweep so evil a breed from off the face of the earth." While I agree with controlling carbon dioxide emissions as much as possible we must not neglect the need of plant life. If we add efficient plant growth....not clear cut forests etc., we can use nature's way of converting carbon dioxide. This has worked from time immortal....why not harness it. Studies show that beneath the oceans, vast vents of carbon dioxide are released. What humans add to the CO2 in the atmosphere is does not amount to more that a drop in the bucket.....but the "Global Warming fad" is making many millionaires.
I have 35+ years in energy engineering, two engineering degrees, an MBA, held a PE license in several states, have engineered a score of nuclear power plants, two score fossil power plants, and studied advanced energy systems, e.g. nanotechnology, solar cells, hydrogen fuel systems, etc. for years. I have designed a number of chimneys for ~500 MWe power plants. It is inconceivable that power sequestration will ever work. The 1 st cost, and operating costs of the house power needed (e.g. fans, pumps) to overcome the delta P would destroy any economic value of any fossil fuel. There may be a soft solution, biosequestration (beyond my knowledge) whereby organisms will "eat" the CO2, in acceptable amounts. However, I have read extensively on the subject of global warming, and consider the problem is technically unworthy of massive social costs. Simply put, man produced CO2 is not a significant danger, ergo solution expenditures would be a waste of precious resources.
Folks, Entropy happens, and because of it between 66% and 75% of the potential fuel is lost to heat. Therefore, strategies that enhance the efficiencies of CO2 generating heat engines and internal combusition engines must be pursued. One strategy for coal burning heat engines is to heat isobutane or another compressed liquid at the turbine exhaust, pipe the gas to flash type boiler, and use it to spin another turbine. Using this strategy will increase plant efficiecy up to 20%, which means for every two 1000 MW boilers using compressed liquids for condenser cooling you can shut down one 1000 MW boiler. Compressed liquid technology is already in use to convert hot rock and geothermal energy to electricity, so the leap is not all that large. Fire Protection concerns will have to be met using gaurded pipe and placing the compressed liquid boiler/turbine generator in a oxygen deficient atmosphere.